Curse

Yanman.be · Oct 09, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Yanssassin equals epic lulz imo

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 09, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

[QUOTE=draxynnic]Conjure (element) won't work with a zealous set - you need to use a dagger set of the appropriate damage type. Also note that there is no Conjure Earth.

On the topic of 'cheat' offhand attacks - Phoenix may not have the extra benefits of the other two, but it also has the advantage of not requiring a knockdown - something that few Assassins can produce reliably on demand without having already gone through some or all of their chain already. The 'Falling' skills seem more suited to extending a combo than starting one.

Now, I know there ARE ways to do it (Shock, for example, if you feel you can afford the exhaustion... but if you're using the combo on every opponent in PvE, that exhaustion is going to pile up fast. Been there, tried that), but at the very least GPS is more useful when fighting giants.

[QUOTE]

Shock on an assassin is almost useless. Assassins can't afford exhaustion when going through a 4 skill chain of even all 5 energy skills. 20 seconds to start a new combo as well. If I was a shock sin I would change to mark of instability, siphon speed *cover hex*. Black off-hand, Twisting fangs, falling spider, Dual attack here *blades of steel is nice*. Oh and yes I was in a hurry typing and forgot there was no conjure earth

there should be tho!

Oh and the Zealous part I meant to say element but I've been typing a bit on here and just been putting Zealous orsundering so I'm not sure what happened there but nice catch. Yes you would have to use whatever element you invest points in.

Also Golden Phoenix Strike doesn't have added bonuses but all of the others cost 10 energy *falling spider doesn't count because assassins don't supply a very good knock down OFTEN. Sometimes with the right build they do tho.*

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

For PvE I directly think [wiki]feigned neutrality[/wiki]. Overpowered monsters can hit really hard, so when you see something nasty coming you can hit the feigned button right away and back off a bit.

I haven't come across anything that can one-hit-kill my Assassin yet.... or at least not before Olias has put Weakness on it, which does tend to take the edge off. Way of Perfection and Critical Agility tend to do the rest (with or without CD). Has the added benefit of still doing damage at the same time...

Feigned Neutrality has its place.... but in PvE, even Shadow Sanctuary suits me better (because you can use skills after it without cancelling it... e.g. Dark Escape).

Yanman.be · Oct 09, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

SotiCoto you forgot about your encounter with the Chromatic Drakes???

Faer · Oct 09, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

(because you can use skills after it without cancelling it... e.g. Dark Escape).

Or you can use Dark Escape first. That works too.

@OP:

Just run a Moebius Strike build of some sort. Infinite attack chains rawk mah sawkz, etcetera.

draxynnic · Oct 10, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Am I A Good Sin

Shock on an assassin is almost useless. Assassins can't afford exhaustion when going through a 4 skill chain of even all 5 energy skills. 20 seconds to start a new combo as well. If I was a shock sin I would change to mark of instability, siphon speed *cover hex*. Black off-hand, Twisting fangs, falling spider, Dual attack here *blades of steel is nice*.

That was my gut feeling - my experience was with a Warrior using Shock, and I figured an Assassin would run into similar problems (worse, in fact, since an Assassin actually needs to use Energy while the Warrior both has adrenaline as an alternative, and is less affected by Exhaustion in the first place (as warrior energy recharge isn't that much faster than exhaustion recovery)

Quote:

Also Golden Phoenix Strike doesn't have added bonuses but all of the others cost 10 energy *falling spider doesn't count because assassins don't supply a very good knock down OFTEN. Sometimes with the right build they do tho.*

Black Lotus (which I'd missed the first time around) does give more energy back, though. (Every Assassin should have enough Critical Strikes for that to be true if they're using weapons at all.) Still, you're essentially agreeing, as I was objecting to the assertion that it was better to use the alternatives to Golden Phoenix - admittedly I'd missed Black Lotus, but if the rest of your build calls for an enchantment rather than a hex, I'd certainly take GP over BL.

Of course, the problem with all the 'cheat' offhands is that they have longish recharges, meaning that you either need to have an alternative chain, a method of recharging them, or something else to do while they recharge.

moriz · Oct 10, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

the oldskool shock assassins used shock as their lead attack. granted, this was before the ridiculous NF powercreep that turned assassin into 1234567 kill switches. but still, you can run a fairly effective assassin with shock in your combo.

for pve though, just run a mobius chain with critical agility and critical defenses.

Bobby2 · Oct 10, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

So to summarize what's been said so far for a PvE Sin

- Crit Agility, Crit Defenses
-- some way of securing reapplication of these skills
- Moebius (w. Death Blossom?)

-- season to taste (and A/D for Mystic Regen is McDonald's. Fills you up nicely, but makes you lazy and complacent

)

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 10, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Black lotus is a nice skill but over all lets say you use shadow prison, black lotus with no time for energy regen. This = at 13 crit strikes I believe -2 energy. Now lets say I use vigourous spirit or 1 of the many other enchants before charging into the battle. Then GPS. 5 energy Enchant + 2 seconds energy gain ( about 2 or 3 energy we will say 2 )+ GPS= -8 energy. Using black lotus you end with more energy, this is of course not including any zealous daggers or landing a critical hit but just the raw energy used, but Black Lotus isnt the most useable as it has a 12 or 15 second rehcarge? GPS has the lowest recharge of the "cheat" off-hands (8 seconds ).

Bobby2 combine critical agility, critical defences, mystic regen = me as the laziest sin ever :-p. Course I'll be there going GPS-> TF->MS->DB->MS->DB... u got the picture :-p. Nice build actually.

We might just want to make a new thread labeled "cheat" off-hand discussion. If u want u can make it.

SotiCoto · Oct 10, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

SotiCoto you forgot about your encounter with the Chromatic Drakes???

They didn't one-hit-kill me; they hundred-hit-killed me in a matter of seconds. There is a difference......
.... and I can kill them now..... easily. I can kill Ceratodons too, though they're a bit tougher defensively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Or you can use Dark Escape first. That works too.

I'm thinking of use with Deadly Paradox primarily.... for the quick recharge. Dark Escape would cancel DP... and thus Shadow Sanctuary would take twice as long to recharge...
[And yes, Deadly Paradox works on Shadow Sanctuary, despite it being a PvE only skill. I tested it.]

Zanpakutou · Oct 10, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Imo for general pve you dont even need a second proffesion, unless you like the idea of 'tanking sins' mystic regen and wop are not really usefull. Heres what I like to use every now and again.

Critical Defence
Jagged Strike (fast recharge, which helps if nukers kill your target quickly)
Wild Strike
Critical Strike
Moebius Strike {E}
Death Blossom
Shadow Refuge

If you insist on using the E proffesion just go with Shock and Falling spider, something I generally dont favor, Exhaustion caused by repetision of Shock can be a pain.

Wop is a nice heal, even if you have low critical strikes... I usually try to maintain a high block rate, so heals are not of massive importance... Nor do I attempt to 'tank' which many PuG assasins do. However, if your enchants get stripped and you are relying on WoP I'd say theres a pretty high chance you'l get beaten to a pulp.

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 10, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanpakutou

Imo for general pve you dont even need a second proffesion, unless you like the idea of 'tanking sins' mystic regen and wop are not really usefull. Heres what I like to use every now and again.

Critical Defence
Jagged Strike (fast recharge, which helps if nukers kill your target quickly)
Wild Strike
Critical Strike
Moebius Strike {E}
Death Blossom
Shadow Refuge

If you insist on using the E proffesion just go with Shock and Falling spider, something I generally dont favor, Exhaustion caused by repetision of Shock can be a pain.

Wop is a nice heal, even if you have low critical strikes... I usually try to maintain a high block rate, so heals are not of massive importance... Nor do I attempt to 'tank' which many PuG assasins do. However, if your enchants get stripped and you are relying on WoP I'd say theres a pretty high chance you'l get beaten to a pulp.

I highly advise against the E profession for a sin in PvE. As useful as it can be in certain parts of the game to reap the benefits of almost any of these skills you have to invest enough points which the assassin probably can't spare.

I agree with you on shock as well tho. The exhaustion and recharge time just isn't worth it.

Now for these 'tanking sins' its only natural that for survival and an elite other than shadow form you would combine the nice critical defences and critical agility with mystic regen to shut down melee, lower damage, get an IAS, and 9 health regen for 20 seconds and recastable way before time is up on it. You have 4 slots left where you can put in attack skills to do plenty of damage and 1 slot for a res sig or sunspear rebirth sig. That there sounds like a hard hitting, very self sufficient * other than conditions and hexes *, decent or better, build.

Tyla · Oct 10, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Agreed.

I've found the Mystic Regen and Assassin's Remedy combo vastly superior at mitigation.WoP just seems like a wasted use of a skill slot and attribute points to me.I'd rather have a +9pip heal and near constant condition removal, especially in GWEN and ESPECIALLY if pugging.

I too have found WoP to conditional, sporadic and expensive in practice while the 30 second vs 5 second downtime if stripped when compared to Mystic seals the deal for me.

Each to their own.

ah,but you're forgetting mystic regen costs more and impliments in a net-loss of energy because of the WoP buff(usually if i face enchant removal i change it round to a more repetitive enchant/change combo):P

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 10, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

ah,but you're forgetting mystic regen costs more and impliments in a net-loss of energy because of the WoP buff(usually if i face enchant removal i change it round to a more repetitive enchant/change combo):P

Muahahahah finally I get some fun

. Your forgetting critical hits, energy gain skills, cover enchants, time between enchant cast and removal. All of these contribute to lowering the net-loss of energy and also losing smallest amount of energy ( example- mystic regen is cast, then vigourous spirit. Enchantment removal is then used. Total energy lost = 5 instead of the possible 10). Also mystic regen is cast then golden lotus strike is used. 10 + 5=15 energy used - energy gain from lotus about...... 8 or 9 at 12 I can't remember. We will say 8. Total energy losy = 7 instead of possible 15 ( the 15 would be mystic regen removed before lotus hit = no energy gain or if mystic regen is cast and removed in the less than 1 sec dagger attack of Golden phoenix strike). So you can't just say that mystic regen would be a huge net loss of energy as it lasts for 20 seconds which is enough time to get your energy back even if it isn't removed. Also when using mystic regen usualy you cover it since its heal is based on your enchant # on you.

Sorry if it seems like I'm flaming you or something. I'm just uber bored. Thankfully ice cream just got here or I would be raving more

Tyla · Oct 10, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Am I A Good Sin

Muahahahah finally I get some fun

. Your forgetting critical hits, energy gain skills, cover enchants, time between enchant cast and removal. All of these contribute to lowering the net-loss of energy and also losing smallest amount of energy ( example- mystic regen is cast, then vigourous spirit. Enchantment removal is then used. Total energy lost = 5 instead of the possible 10). Also mystic regen is cast then golden lotus strike is used. 10 + 5=15 energy used - energy gain from lotus about...... 8 or 9 at 12 I can't remember. We will say 8. Total energy losy = 7 instead of possible 15 ( the 15 would be mystic regen removed before lotus hit = no energy gain or if mystic regen is cast and removed in the less than 1 sec dagger attack of Golden phoenix strike). So you can't just say that mystic regen would be a huge net loss of energy as it lasts for 20 seconds which is enough time to get your energy back even if it isn't removed. Also when using mystic regen usualy you cover it since its heal is based on your enchant # on you.

Sorry if it seems like I'm flaming you or something. I'm just uber bored. Thankfully ice cream just got here or I would be raving more

ah,but your forgetting about blind(condition removal ftw,yeah) and damage degraders,and anti-crit skills but either way my sin is usually never being hit,its usually my mes hero lol so whatever rocks your boat:P

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 10, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

ah,but your forgetting about blind(condition removal ftw,yeah) and damage degraders,and anti-crit skills but either way my sin is usually never being hit,its usually my mes hero lol so whatever rocks your boat:P

Agh.... ruin my posting fun eh? Grrrrrr..... that blind is a pesky little bugger on a sin isn't it

. My sins always being hit

probably cause I use heroes and flag em away rush in then unflag so I'm taking the hits..... but yeah u make good points. Blind would kinda shut a sin down. Btw I think GLS would still give energy back. After all vigourous spirit works even when you don't connect. I could be wrong haven't looked at GLS for a while.

BlackSephir · Oct 10, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Or you can put Assassin's Remedy somewhere.
AR > blind

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 11, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Or you can put Assassin's Remedy somewhere.
AR > blind

Don't you have to critical to remove the condition tho? That would kinda be tough seeing as u miss 90% of the time and then have roughly 25% chance to make a critical. .9*.25= roughly 23% chance that when you hit you get a critical hit. Course I could've done that math for no reason....

BlackSephir · Oct 11, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

For 30 seconds, the next 1...8 attack skills you use remove 1 Condition.

* When used with Wearying Strike or Wearying Spear, the weakness is removed before the next attack skill.
* Conditions are removed upon the activation of an attack skill, whether or not the attack hits.

Am I A Good Sin · Oct 11, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

For 30 seconds, the next 1...8 attack skills you use remove 1 Condition.

* When used with Wearying Strike or Wearying Spear, the weakness is removed before the next attack skill.
* Conditions are removed upon the activation of an attack skill, whether or not the attack hits.

Ah. I hadn't looked at that skill since.... idk when.... forever... I geuss I'm gonna have to look at it now... hmmmm......